mutants and a sun god from smallville can teach us about being human." check it out. i assert the only way we navigate this is with that type of conversation. that's does for us. aye am dylan ratigan. "hardball with chris matthews" is up right now. game on. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews's in washington. leading off tonight, in about an hour the house of representatives will vote on speaker john boehner's debt ceiling plan. even if it passes to "white house spokesman jay carney today" it ain't going anywhere in the senate. here's why. so far democrats have given in on getting a clean debt ceiling raise. given in on the size of spending cuts, given in on having any tax increase even for the wealthy. now harry reid says the bill will be voted down in the

senate, because it doesn't raise the debt ceiling through 2012. still it now looks like something will come out of tonight's votes that will resepp belong the final deal. also, holding the economy hostage. are republicans willing to see the u.s. default or lose its credit rating if he don't get everything they want? we'll talk to a tea party member about how fair they're willing to go. where's president obama in us a this? he's losing supporters. if his ratings don't improve he'll be a two-to-one underdog next year. >> and how each side hopes to come out of this looking like the responsible party. let me finish tonight with the question of just how far the tea party's willing to go to get its way. we start with the debt ceiling crisis with the real expert on this, chuck todd, political director for nbc news as well as chief white house correspondent. and also alex wagner, huffington post reporter are and msnbc

contributor. thank you both for joining us. chuck first. the way i see it, the senate acts tonight on the house bill after the house bill passes if it does, and we head into a weekend effort to reconcile the two approaches. the president should have on his desk by monday some kind of dealmaker? your thoughts? >> reporter: that's an if somehow harry reid and mitch mcconnell could tum to an agreement how the boehner bill, assuming it makes it over and all folks are planning on the assumption that it will, that assuming they can come together and agreement on amendments. one giant sticking point. this idea for the second round of the deficit reduction, if somehow this joint committee fails to find the deficit reduction numbers in it automatically before another debt ceiling vote happens you've got to find another $1.8 trillion in cuts, putting us right back to where we are now. the white house says it's a

non-starter. harry reid says it's a non-starter. the question is politically, how much hardball is mitch mcconnell going to play on this? i have a feeling he's going to play pretty big hardball on this to borrow a phrase, chris. seems to me he really is boehner's back. not just having boehner's back today or boehner's back tomorrow, but he's going to have boehner's back. the question is, can harry reid pry away seven or eight republicans to work with him? where does that happen? at this point i don't think you'll see any movement on a deal publicly, at the earliest, not until sunday. >> is the real fear not that there's a second effort to cut spending a bit more, but the second part of this spending cuts which would come at the end of this year, the vote on that, would actually cut to the bone. go after entitlements, medicare, after things the democrats treasurer jer is that the big fear? i think pelosi, former speaker, now democratic leader, was alluding to that in her very strong statement against the boehner plan tonight?

>> reporter: that is one fear. you talk to democrats familiar with the way these negotiations have gone, and they'll say, look, this first $1.2 2r8 trillion, the first round ever cuts they have in their plans are almost identical. off a little on the pentagon but mostly dent t lly i identical. that's agreed to. whether in the -- whatever version you kim come up with those cuts remain the same. the second round of cuts democrats said they'd be for if it comes with significant movement on the revenue/tax issue, and if there is no movement on that issue, the boehner bill says, no, we're going for the cuts anyway, and that's why democrats want to draw a line in that because, yes, it would be some real pain. democrats argue wers want shared pain. they're saying, there's no shared pain on this. >> alex, seems to me there's a couple deal breakers here.

first, democrats aren't agreeing to any balanced budget amendment to this hostage situation they're in now. not start to change the constitution that they don't believe in anyway. >> right. >> and secondly, doesn't look like republicans are really going to accept any tax increase. it really comes down to spending measures, how high they are. the end of this year and beginning of next year. what is the pitfall of this whole deal this weekend? >> really, you've heard that from both sides. who's going to hang their hat? the timing is hour. you have to understand is there appetite? the american public. are we going to drag them through this again in five or six months. talk about ruining christmas. the gop ruining christmas to relitigate this in a few months. and the ultimate question what are the credit rating agencies going to do? we still don't know whether you know, a two-step program is going to avoid a downgrading of

u.s. credit. now, there's a strong likelihood that even if we get a sort of solution here, that we can go to a aa rating from a aaa and what does that do to the markets and moreover what does it do for the white house and congress? >> look at speaker boehner, previewing the vote. this was early this afternoon. speaker john boehner. let's listen. >> when the house takes action today, the united states senate will have no more excuses for inaction. the bill's not perfect. i've never stead was perfect. nobody in my caucus believes it's perfect, but what this bill reflects is a sincere, honest effort to end this crisis in a bipartisan way. >> well, end this cries and anoth crisis and another one in a few months. senator harry reid promising to kill the bill should it make it out of the house and go to the

senate. >> as soon as the house completes its vote tonight or this afternoon, the senate will move to take up that message ta they sent to us. it will be defeated. our economy and the financial markets desperately need stabilities. speaker boehner's bill does not provide either. it does not provide stability and doesn't help our economy in any way. so i believe, madam president, it's time for the tea party republicans to stop resisting compromise. they must join democrats and republicans of goodwill to put the economy ahead of politics. >> chuck, i think there's a way out of this. can't the democrats buy away this idea of a second vote at the end of the year next year by giving them a bigger cut? something that major garrett said in one of his articles. seems if they want to buy their way out of this, take bigger cuts now to pay off not having another vote later on in the year or next year? >> reporter: the potential way that this comes together is on

this idea of the trigger. apologies for using this congressspeak, but instead of it being the debt ceiling agree to something much harsher, and a penalty harsh for both sides. maybe an agreed upon, if this joint committee fails to come up with tax reform and entitlement reform across the board slashing on transportation, say, agriculture, pentagon, in a really, in a way that would be automatic, so that you couldn't have any control. you have to say it's across the board in some percentage across the board cut so there's a real penalty both sides would share if the joint committee fails. because that's what the white house is arguing. they assume it's going to be created to fail. republicans argue, no, no, no. they really want, boehner really wants tax reform. he wants this to work. that's where this would get -- that's the negotiating room here. it's not up front cut cuts. it's the trigger on the second

round. >> back to alex. looks attractive. theepz across the board look attractive. all cut by the same percentage? >> the pra verb ya proverbial k can down the road. chuck made the point earlier on twitter. it's evidenced there's an understanding nothing's really going to happen. you know, looks the thing that is most marketed to me in all this and happened today in the white house press briefing. someone asked jay carney what has the white house gotten out of this? we're not going to default. look at the two packages on the table, they are remarkably similar. got news, there's going to about deal. the bad news what does that mean for democrats when the chips fall down? >> i want, chuck, surprised at a strong leader in all this. does he think so? >>. >> reporter: they would think they look like the reasonable person on the front. the message front a long view,

long view on this they can do that. short term, they admit that like every in washington, they're all taking on water, but they feel like they've made the point that they've isolated the republicans a little bit. made them look like they're too stubborn, that they won't compromise. but at the end of the day, you know, he's been there to stop them from themselves. right? he's been there at the end, fine, then the bush tax cuts. extend. fine. i'll sign this bill to prevent default. they've counted on him to be there and not call their blufr. they've yet to do that. >> chuck todd, thank you. and alex, thank you as well. how far are republicans willing to go if they don't get what they want? the fall, the credit downgrade, economic catastrophe. what's off the table? how far republicans will take their fight. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] succeeding in today's market

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we should stop talking about the boehner bill as if it's some recipe for a solution here. it's dead on arrival. what you're have to do reconcile what's in reid and boehner, a lot of the things the president's talked about in terms of spending cuts he's

willing to accept. that's where the kpla compromise is. >> that was white house senior adviser david plouffe talking about the boehner bill on "the daily rundown" with chuck todd. and tea partiers plan to stick to their weapons no matter the economic consequences over the weekend. caucus member steve scalise. thank you so much for joining us. we're on, as you are well aware, facing this vote tonight. will you vote with the leadership? >> right now i'm going to vote for the plan that actually starts cutting spending and puts us on a path to balance the budget. supporting this plan and pushing for even deeper cuts down the road when we still have to face this spending problem we have in washington. >> what made you decide to go with the boehner plan rather than sticking to the very hard line of some tea partiers who said, basically what we started with we want noi? >> i supported cut cap and ball rchs and frankly still think that's the long-term solution.

we'll live to fight another day on that bill. today the plan before us is basically what the president's talking about. that's still just threats and ultimatums and tax increases versus this plan speaker boehner brought that awful us acknowledge isn't the long-term solution but it starts the process of solving the problem by cutting spending and saying we're going to have to face the repeat they washington can't keep spending money it doesn't have. >> what percentage do you think of the u.s. economy should be spent by the federal government? give me a rough notion? because your party has used numbers that have been, the balanced budget amendment and the cap measure, for example. what do you want it to be? how much federal government should we have in terms of the dollar? >> sure, chris. somewhere around 18% would about healthy number for our country, and for the growth of our economy to create jobs. and obviously that's something we've been willing to negotiate on. willing to negotiate on the cutsance but you've got have real cuts and willing to negotiate on the kind of constitutional amendment and the way it should be structured, and yet the president and both the

senate liberals refused to negotiate with us on any of those points. being reasonable we put a lot of options on the table. >> i want to be reasonable. you're talking going down 25% of the gdp down to around 18% pr chopping off one-third of federal activity. a third. >> nobody's talking about -- nobody said we have to do that overnight. >> well, overnight. even eventually what will you get rid of? what thing would you get rid of? >> we've laid out over $100 billion in cuts and the president doesn't agree with us on that. we've got to find some middle ground. at some point the president's got a responsibility to put a plan on the table. he disagrees with our plan. we put a plan in writing, sent it over, cut, cap and balance. so if they want to sit on the sidelines -- >> you're leading. let me ask you this -- all my life people want less governing except when it comes

to them. my father, my parents, conservative republicans. when medicare came and they hit 65 they wanted to get it. hoop willing to give wlaup they've got in this country? the military, pensions, social security medicare, medicaid. people like and middle class people get them and are entitled to them. what will you give up that's big to get from 25% of the economy down to 18%? this is a big thing. >> the biggest thing. medicare. obama care, according to the president's own actuaries is scheduled to go bankruptcy in the next 12 years. doing nothing let's medicare go bankrupt. we put on table in our budget a plan that actually says if you're 55 or older, nothing change. it's there are for you not going bust. under 55, rather than let them go bankrupt we keep a plan in place that finally controls the costs allowing people to have the same options that members of congress have today. that's a responsible plan addressing the problem as

opposed to letting the plan go bankrupt. >> only 55 or younger. you're kicking the can down the road. the women live to be 80-something. you're going to tale woman 85 years old when he is gets there, you don't get health care. go buy insurance. go try to buy that when you're 85. you can't buy it. >> chris it works a lot like medicare part d, ultimately, the status quo it is goes bankrupt. that 85-year-old lives another five years there's going 20 be no medicare because it go bankrupt under current law. we're saying reform it strengthen it and keep it land make sure it doesn't bankrupt medicare and the rest of the country. look at the federal budget in the last two years under president obama you've seen departments grown by over 25% when families are curting back. families are doing the majority -- >> that's general talk. >> we've laid down specifics. laid down 100 billion cuts. >> what percentage of this

country do you think spends on foreign aid? things like welfare? everybody says that's where all the money's going. that's not where the money's going. >> there's money throughout this budget and we've had votes on the floor. i voted to caught whole lot more than the $100 billion. we've won some and haven't won some. we're pineal lyfinally changing debate in washington. president obama said quit spending and look where it got us. the unemployment and the deficit. we've got to turn it around. >> this bed was on fire when he got in it. be honest about it. >> most -- >> by the way, bush made a big tax cut, two big war, a big tax cut, prescription bill that wasn't -- we had a guy on last night that showed almost half the federal debt was caused by bush over the eight years in office. that's serious business. >> everybody loves blaming president bush. >> i just did it. by the way -- >> you can blame anybody you

want. who's been in office the last and a half years and doesn't want to correct the problem? place the blame where it is and it falls on both sides of the aisle. >> that was a totally -- >> the president doesn't want to put a plan in place. we've got fix the problem and it's not done by raising taxes. the problem is washington spends too much money. you don't solve that problem by sending washington more money and job killing taxes. you start controlling spending. >> i've heard you say over and over, as 14ds trillion debt. half cause bood bud by bush. you can't just talk than when he left us with the problem. >> we're here solving the problem and president obama doesn't want to address it. doesn't want to put a plan in writing. we're sending another plan tonight. when will theyaddressing the problem?

>> raise taxes on the rich you guys defended race? >> plays class warfare and acts like billionaires and millionaires solve the problem. unwilling 20 put a plan in writing. people on both sides have criticized him for his failure to lead and if the shoe fits, wear it. >> thanks, for coming on. the only reason the democrats don't want the boehner plan is because of politics. let's listen to mitch mcconnell. >> democrats leaders and the president himself endorsed every feature of this legislation except one and that's the fact that it doesn't allow the president to avoid another national debate about spending and debt until after the next presidential election. why would you want to do that? make the president's re-election campaign a little easier is the answer. >> here's congressman john larson. thanks for joining uses. house democratic caulk fris

connecticut. sir, you just heard the diatribe. i want to be fair. the national debt now, the $14 trillion. wasn't invented by president obama. the $7 trillion added up by bush because of wars and prescription drugs and tax cuts for the rich and walk away from it and blame it all on him. i don't know how they have morality, but you heard this guy with 1 million words make that point. >> we ought mail everybody a copy of "true believer." we have pure ideological theater. what these guy, doing is a shame. the rest of the world is looking in. the world economy is teetering. clearly, the national economy is in frail recovery. most importantly, chris, household economies, people who want and are anxious about getting back to work and making sure they hold on to what they have look in at washington and

they should be engaged in putting them back to work and solving the real problems that face us see nothing but ideological theater and pledges and true believer, and disinformation, totally re-creating history before us. have pg amnesia when it comes to how we got to this point and if you dare raise it, geez, there you go again, raising george bush. let's get out of the blame game. let's keep everybody at the table and let's solve the real issue, which is jobs in this country. let's put people at table and talk about what cuts have to be made stra strategically to have job creation and what we have to do to incentivize people and invent in the american people to put them back to work. it's not that complicated but elections, you've acknowledged this on your program, have consequences, and america is watching those consequences unfold. this is -- it's a sad time. if you believe in this

institution, you work for tip o'neill, you saw how he was able to get together with ronald reagan. imagine accommodate be ronald reagan more than 18 time on the national debt. this shouldn't be an issue. this is about the full faith of the american people. >> you heard that guy just come on. he got elected and came on with a lot of words to make the simple point the president has to think up programs to cut. maim name how you get down to 1%? un -- 18%. it's going grow over time. never as small as it once was in thomas jefferson's time, but these guys say now it's the president's job. they're throwing it on his side. not only is the debt his problem, which they gave hem, he's got to come up with all the republican spending program cuts. they want him to list their cuts for them. i've never heard anything like this. >> obama came up way cure for the common cold or cancer, karl

maloney said, these guys would say, no. when obama had everybody in the room. talk about the real driving of costs, short term and long term, is the cost of health care. way to had to be addressed, but you never hear them -- they're always talking about the benefits accrued to people. you pointed out. what person is going to give up though benefits, and i would add, why should they? when you look at the escalating costs, where's the outcray for medical devices? pharmaceutical? insurance, doctors, hospitals? and the trial bar, to come up with the savings that we see a nation that has spending close to 20% of its gross domestic product on health care. put america back to work. address the issue. don't go after the beneficiaries but the true cost. that's what adults do. what's that tip would have done and in fact what ronald reagan would have done. >> i agree about the lawyers.

though them in the mix. people get six. two requests, give me what i can get and get somebody else to pay for it. that's the way people are when they get old and i understand completely. somebody that's 80 years old is not out there swinging a pick. they can't pay for it. they need help. thank you, chairman of the democrat uk caucus. thanks for helping tonight. john mccain, he meant the candidates to lost. the old john mccain is back. that tiff is next in the "sideshow." he's a straight-talking express again. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ÷@x

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com ibs made by the great john mccain on the u.s. senate floor as he read a piece from the "wall street journal." let's listen to the senator. >> the idea seems to be that if the house gop refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue and the public will turn in mass against barack obama. then democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced budget amendment and reform entitlements and the tea party hobbits could return to middle earth having defeated moredohr. this is the kind of crack political thinking that turned sharron angle and christine o'donnell into gop senate nominees. >> actually, he can substitute for me with that kind of talk. both ticked off, both women ticked off at the reference that came back to income contain with interesting crafted statements. angle attacked mccains "lord of the rings" reference saying as

in the feign it is the hobbits who are the heroes and save the land. this lord of the t.a.r.p., mccain, ought to read to the end of the story and join forces with the tea party. not criticizing. what world do they live in? and christine o'donnell, not a witch, responded, doesn't help him to attack to those conservative whose graciously gave him another chance to keep his senate seat. i remember that differently out in arizona. really i think what happened was, they had their own candidates and the candidate was j.d. hayworth and mccain beat the party candidate. and finally, joe walsh, ah, sueed by his ex-wife for over $100,000 in unpaid child support. what a great corner she. the lawsuit said he failed to make child support payments despite loaning a total ofs $35,000 to his campaign. we know where his priorities are. the six-figure amount is far too high and his claim is had no more problems with child support

than any other average guy. don't you love that lawyer? he's no more of a deadbeat than any other guy who isn't paying child support. anyway, up next, despite over the debt ceiling is it helping president obama? losing support in key states. can he regain his political footing after this kerfuffle this weekend? you're watching "hardball." only on msnbc. so i took my heartburn pill and some antacids. we're having mexican tonight, so another pill then?

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i'm veronica dell ra cruz with your market watch. the dow jones industrial falling 62 points. the s&p 500 giving up 4, the nasdaq tacked on a point 1/and half. and upbeat economic reports not enough to affect the debt

ceiling. and exxon/mobil fell. the stock fell short of estimates. dupont tech cam finished plat despite better than expected earnings and an improved outlook. and sprint nextel, pror subscriber defections than predicted. starbucks stock is soaring based on bottom line results. and weekly jobless claims fell below the key 400,000 level fir the first time since early april. i'm veronica de la cruz and now, back to "hardball." back to "hardball." what a night it is. the house of representatives is expected to vote on jane baohn boehner's deal. the vote is delayed. no word when it will take place

and the best guess, no, he doesn't have the votes he needs to pass the bill and send it to the senate. msnbc will, of course, bring you the vote when it happens or bring you the speeches before the vote. in his debt ceiling vote, president obama angered republicans being unwilling to compromise. how has president obama fared in the fight? michael steele is here not exactly as a judge but a commentator. and msnbc contributor, and ron reagan's here. the youthful, forever youthful ron reagan, stressed in youthful attire wearing the threads of youth. >> someone has to. >> the boyish looks he's always had. here he is today. >> how do i do that? >> just dress like that. that's the trick. >> i'll send awe memo. >> you dress like a ceo, and he dresses like -- not. pollster.com an average of national polls has obama the president's approval r5i9ing trending downward.

not a good week for him. 50.5. he's got a greater than 50%. negative is approval, 44%. i'll give you the first attempt here, michael. this is not a good time, but, you know, i keep thinking, almost like a bank guard. one of these overaged guys standing in uniform. when the guys come in, we want all the money now. put it in our bag, the tea party's said, give us all the money. overloaded with arm, bring down the government. blow up the bank. what's he supposed to do? what is he supposed to do to be strong? >> as opposed to what he's done. i think what he's done, as we've seen in some of the comedy, fumbled the gun out of his holster. >> okay. >> fumbled in his steps towards the bank robbers to -- >> what would you do? >> i think the president diminished himself. >> what would you have done? >> i think i would have -- coming off of 2010, in that little area where he got a good many things done. >> when he gave you guys all you

wanted? >> look, he did. he took the position and that was the -- came out strong. pulled the caucus he needed to get it done. >> he gave way to your side. >> the same thing -- well, if he's talking about being the adult and the pragmatist and grown-up, then he showed that there. why -- >> the demands are the right were so extreme. a balanced budget amendment. no revenues. just big cuts in programs democrats spent years creating. they want it all their way. your thoughts? >> well i think that it's possible the clock is on mr. obama's side at this point. i mean if we get to 11:59 on monday, there's still no good deal. a deal that, a bill he signed, i think, maybe even before that point, he demands that a clean debt ceiling increase be given to him. that he will veto any other legislation. he simply won't have it. give plme a clean bill through next year and i'll sign it and

nothing else, and then the onus is back on the house. they have to come up with this bill, this legislation in the first place. they're trying to put all the blame won him, but it's really with them. >> if they pass a bill tonight, will it work? a big bill, goes to the senate, without demands -- well, it's going to be a softer approach. can they be pushed into that corner ron's talking about? >> ron makes an excellent point. a real practical reality that exists out there and an option for the president. the problem is it cuts both ways. as we've seen from some of the recent polls, the president is trending now 31% for re-election among independents. he's taken a hit here. the question is how do people proceed that given all that's happened over the last two, three week, everybody's got mud on them? does he have more or less mud? the strategy, question, if you get to the point ron described, pulling the trigger what comes

on the other side if the house says, no? >> last night, supposed to have the budget directeder on. worked with him in tip o'neill days. couldn't do the show. he was meet wig the vice president. he went through something quite real. they've offered tremendous oefrs. medicare, medicaid, social security, all kinds of painful cut proposals. if the republicans would just give some revenues to go home and say we got a decent deal here. right would not give them even that. they wouldn't say yes to -- >> and the question is -- the question is -- >> and president obama how he looks and who comes off better than who in this. you know, the american public i think can now see what the dynamic here is. they're asking themselves, because, remember, this is a phony crisis. this isn't really a crisis. they could raise the debt ceiling today. they could have done it six months ago. they can do it at 11:59 on monday. it could happen in five minutes. it's not hard. you have to ask yourself the question, who is ginning up this

phony crisis? and the answers is, not barack obama. >> respond to that. >> absolutely. the answer is harry reid, because last year when harry reid had a chance -- >> it's harry reid now. harry reid? >> listen to my point. >> okay. >> when the senate did not address raising the debt limit at the end of last year harry reid said, no, after the election, we'll leave that to the republicans to handle that next year. he passed the buck at that moment. he did not take the leadership responsibility -- >> who dropped it, then? >> look, ron -- you can cut this any way you want, bro, the bottom line, democrats controlled the senate and the house and the white house up until election night, up until january when the new republican -- >> who controls the house now? and where does the legislation originate? >> and b reeshgs refused to extend the debt limit when he had an opportunity to do it. don't start blaming -- >> blame other people all you want. i think the american people know better. >> don't step away from the facts and the read reality how

we got here. >> the public needs re-educated constantly. never news worthy. this debt creeling is news woirnlg, as ron said, the conservatives wanted to make it an issue. the problem, it's knop appropriatinot appropriation. signature of the president and go back and say whether you pay the bills or not. all your questioning. not whether you'll spend the money. whether you'll pay the bills. nobody's given back of these services? isn't that true? >> well, it's true. >> then you created a crisis. >> we have not to this extent. the crisis was already brewing. you were right before going back to the bush administration, particularly in the second term, with a lot of the spending that took place there. pile on top of that, t.a.r.p., a bunch of other prap programs. when obama came in, $10 trillion worth of debt. today we look at $14 trillion worth of debt. you had a group of individuals who were elected last year who watched that precipitous climb and -- >> bush tax cuts had taken effect. you can't say he came's in with

10 and ended up with 14. >> and you can -- >> what does that say about future spending? >> i can't keep up. if you talk fast i can't keep up with you. the fact of the matter is these tax cuts have cost the federal government treasury money. that's why the debt's going up. >> what's cost the -- >> and the -- >> excuse me. when bush left us, i'm glad he did, w., i'm glat he finished, but he left behind continuing two war, continuing tax cuts, unfunded prescription drugs and spending he approved. all of that continued to grow. >> when you cut taxes and you continue to spend what is that? >> the president's problem is he got in the bed had it was already on fire. that's a hard -- >> you can excuse obama all you want. >> i'm not excusing him. maybe he shouldn't have gotten in the bed. >> who's excusing bush in this? michael, if -- you're excusing obama. what about what got us here? >> a good -- michael steele, ron

reagan thank you. up next, damage control. a look at what both sides are doing to come out of this fight looking like grown-ups. we're going to talk p.r. now. this is "hardball" only on msnbc. to put the spin on this, our guest is coming in. i know a lot of marks. we'll be right back, only on msnbc.

sarah palin the back in the news, believe it or not, prompting another round ever the will she or won't she game? palin set to give the keynote speech at a tea party of america event in iowa over labor day. palin said all along she'd make a decision about running for president by the end of summer. if she's serious about running, so far doesn't seem to be, probably can't wait much longer to get in the race than this september. we'll be right back. [ woman ] we take it a day at a time.

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welcome back to "hardball." when all is said and done "hardball" is all said and done. it is about the message who broke through and who won the war of public opinion. we have a democratic strategist and forther white house advisor in the clinton administration. when you had reducing unemployment. how you sell this baby with the president and you had to buckle to only cuts in domestic programs. that you treasure as a democrat. no increase of taxes even for the very wealthy and even put up with playing in the other guy's sand box for weeks now. how do you win on that one? >> well, it's a mess right now. it is no question when you look at the president's numbers it is sinking. he has it come out with a win here and a win for him frankly is a deal in which the budget's cut and which taxes are not part of it and which he gets it out of the election season. if he does that, then the

deficit issue is behind them until the election can go on to what's right and wrong for the country. >> why knowing that, and they are listening right now, would republicans like boehner and advisors like you ever go along with a deal to put this behind them? >> well because there are two things here. in political reality, republicans gain also by having a deal. if you go back to 96, republicans were elected and so were the republicans in congress. if the two make a deal -- >> yeah, but don't they get interrupted by every cup of el of moses fighting over the debt which is a republican issue. >> yeah but there is a real debt here. the republicans paid a terrible price and the republican kes thrash all they want but if they cross the trip wire. >> but they haven't yet. >> but they are very close. >> suppose they time it. make noise, noise, noise. beat their drums for weeks as they have and magically cut a deal monday. >> well, again, any deal that

gets cut before the deadline the president is still a winner. as the president did. if there is no deal then both of the people -- >> let me test you. you've been an advisor to clintons, hillary as well as bill. secretary clinton as well. suppose you are sitting next to the president and he is confronted monday night. do i sign a bill that forces this issue to be closed, do you sign that? >> yes. >> you accept it. >> even though it is another fight in a couple of months. >> well you don't want this thing to go to a debt crisis. you're president united states. you can't pay the bills for the united states. you say that is wrong what the republicans are doing but you can't let the country be held hostage. sign it, you're done with it. move on to the next issue. >> you don't come out and say, i want a clean bill or nothing. >> no. because you say we will have a budget fight. >> october 1, the budget runs out. >> have you noticed this that there are advisors put out the word, not the president that he would vietnam why a bill that had the second requirement in it. >> that right. >> he doesn't have want to have to -- >> they are threatening the republicans. every side until the final

deadline tries to get everything they can. >> you wrote something really smart in your memos. you say the president made a big mistake by saying, i'll agree to cut med square if you agree to raise taxes on the rich. >> yeah. >> why is that wrong? >> that's a losing message. >> because everybody has been making that case. >> you said i'll cut medicare which frankly he is supposed to defend medicare, medicaid, medicare, education and the environment. that's what he has to depend. and he will do it if they raise taxes on the wealthy. so he didn't get the independent voters he wanted because he came off as a tax raiser instead of deficit container. it was a mistake to mix his message that way and poll numbers show it. now he changed the message, it's a little late. >> why is every democrat in the country sing chorus. maybe i've been part of that rat times. saying we need to raise revenues. where is that a loser. >> he says tax he reform. >> okay. you know the president has been singing this song. saying let's get people with corporate jets, hedge funds.

you say they are all democrats. >> no, he was -- >> a very rich arm. >> when he was talking about corp rates jets and stuff, he was on to something. then he went back to the bush tax cuts. the whole thing was mixed up and he started to lose point. >> thank you. i don't know why they don't say millionaires. >> do tax reform. >> i don't know. please come back. well have more time next time. when we return, let's go over the m.o. of the tea party. think about it, if anything goes to get your way, whalgts what's next? you're watching "hardball." it's salonpas. this is the relief i've been looking for. salonpas has 2 powerful pain fighting ingredients that work for up to 12 hours. and my pharmacist told me it's the only otc pain patch approved for sale using the same rigorous clinical testing that's required for prescription pain medications. proven. powerful. safe. salonpas.

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let me finish tonight with a simple thought about what we are watching here. the first people to bow to the demands of those threatening to blow up the economy, when the republicans in the house. the leaders, leaders didn't d what the followers told them to do. meet their demands. hold up the country to get their way. those followers didn't win the senate or the presidency. just the house. but by using the house they are able to hold up the entire united states government. they threaten to blow things up economically and it worked. they said they were going to do that just to get their way. not by persuasion. not by politics. not by democratic government but by threatening the destruction of the country's finances. right, so what's next in power grid. the next time they threaten to close down the location electricity and communications

systems that might work well. that might get some action. hey, we are talking about the ends justifying the means, aren't we? if getting their way means drifting this country up to edge of financial catastrophe, if that's okey-dokey, what about a more tritening weapon. yes the wild ones won and they won by scaring with us a shut down. us, by the way, did you hear that? us. they threaten to rob the country of the wealth in historic terms to get what they wanted. spike in interest rates, plunge in bond ratings would rob the country of billions and that's precisely what they jammed us with. i will not forget those who did it. i think the country would do the same and they will try do is t again just as bank robbers do. the bigger the heist, the bigger the appetite. the only question is if certain voters think they is the way they want things done. if they do, listen closely, they're the trouble. they, voters, are the danger. it is not what they want. listen here again, the weapon